Farewell interview Geert ten Dam | “If you have a big ego, things always go wrong”

This is Folia’s last conversation with Geert ten Dam in her position as President of the Board. Friday is her last working day in office. Starting next week she will be “just” a faculty professor of citizenship education. “As a professor, I will continue with two major research projects on citizenship. And I will also do other things, as my husband doesn't want me at home on the couch all day. I will become Chairperson of the Supervisory Board of the UMCG in Groningen and will join the board of the Royal Holland Society of Sciences and Humanities.
 

Geert ten Dam would have liked to leave in a different way, without the disturbances, occupations, and violence of the last few weeks, and without everyone's emotion and frustration - including hers - about the war between Israel and Hamas. “We always tried to prevent the war from coming to campus. It happened anyway. Maybe we could have done more, although we tried endlessly to de-escalate, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I can’t get the videos of the terrible violence here on our campuses out of my head. This is no different, and it will be true for many staff and students.”

Still, it’s not all doom and gloom, she says. “At the dinner we recently hosted for participants in our leadership programs, I also saw that everyone wants to take care of their institution. They are looking for connection, wondering how we can stay afloat as an academy, and how to stay in conversation with each other in a respectful way, if only based on agreeing to disagree.”

You’ve been President of the Board for eight years. Are you happy to be done with it?

“Well, yes and no. The UvA is a great university, and it really feels like my university. The quality is top-notch. But I also always said I wanted to hold this position for a maximum of two terms. In that sense, it is good that I am going. It also brings new energy to the organization. I am now also ready for a bit of rest, and can finally walk around again without my phone on.”

You took office at a turbulent time after the 2015 Maagdenhuis occupation. What expectations did you have for your presidency?

“Look, I’m a child of the UvA; I belong here. But I still didn’t know what to expect from this position. I mainly thought: I will listen carefully and try to connect. Staying calm and using your mind and experience works. And being myself. There were probably plenty of people who thought, ‘Oh, here she comes, riding her bike again.’ But that’s who I am. In this job you have to be yourself, otherwise you won't last. And don’t beat yourself up too much. If you have a big ego, it always goes wrong in public office.”

Under your presidency, an endless number of talking and discussion groups were created. Talk, talk, talk seems to be the essence of your governance style. Is that true?

“I believe in consultation, in the ‘polder model’. I was a Crown member of the Social and Economic Council for many years. We have to figure it out together. That applies to the discussion we had about fossil fuels, but also to the debate we are now entering into about collaborations with external (foreign) parties. Or look at the five-year Institutional Plan. It is much more than a paper document – it was preceded by a great deal of consultation. That leads to quality and support. I believe in a lot of talking, although I would add that all that talking must be effective in the end. I don’t just keep talking about transgressive behavior or assistant professors. I consider and weigh the issues and don't hesitate to make decisions, and people know that.”

One of the first jobs you had to deal with as president was the big democratization referendum in 2016. What happened was that the UvA was not nearly as malleable as many people think and everything stayed the same.

“Not everything. Our employee participation system already had quite a few checks and balances. The UvA had long been an institution where responsibility was placed down low in the organization. The referendum didn't need to change that. We were and still are the most decentralized university in the Netherlands. What has changed and improved is that we have become more transparent as an organization and share much more information than before. By doing that early in the process, we can increase participation.”

A University Forum with invited members was set up for students and staff to discuss university topics informally every month. But the forum didn’t really get off the ground. How do you see that?

“We were able to have a lot of great and substantive conversations, which is precisely why I am pleased with it, and also because its form kept changing over the years. At the moment, we hold discussions over a meal, which is very good. We are still searching for the role of such a forum in the policy cycle, but that doesn’t bother me at all.”

You promised that the forum would be a game-changer.

“In a large institution like the UvA, there is never one game-changer that brings about change. The forum is one of the valuable shoots on the branch of participation. Making your voice heard is broader than just formal co-determination. You have to constantly think about ‘civic participation’.”

Student government, meanwhile, seems to have fallen into the hands of radicals. Is this co-determination system still administratively tenable now that 10 percent of students continually block the administrative process and election turnout is consistently low?

“Election turnout is indeed disastrous. Partly because of this, protest parties have a proportionally large voice and we hear too little of the voice from middle groups. That does worry me. The importance of co-determination is in my bones, but the system hinges on the will to come out of it together. There was also a lack of political will to compromise in the end during the last year at the central student council.”

Social safety was probably at the top of your to-do list. Has the UvA become socially safer since you took office?

“I don’t know if the UvA has become socially safer, but I do know that there is much more awareness of transgressive behavior. In a large organization like the UvA, you can never completely prevent socially unsafe behavior. But we have adapted regulations, appointed an ombudsperson, trained confidential advisors, and included social safety in leadership courses and training sessions. The number of reports of unsafe behavior has also increased. The culture here has changed. I never hear excuses anymore that it's just ‘an incident’ and ‘it really doesn’t happen everywhere.’ Now it is picked up immediately and the various channels to report it are easier to find.”

Diversity was also a common thread throughout your presidency. What has been accomplished there?

“It is on the agenda and, as far as I am concerned, should stay there indefinitely. Meanwhile, diversity officers have been appointed at all faculties, we have mentoring programs for students with non-Western backgrounds, diversity is in our BKO pathways for lecturers, we have the introduction program Get Ready for first-generation (Dutch) students, and last but not least, we are having our colonial past researched. The UvA was founded in 1632 by two merchants, so I have an inkling of what will come out of that.”

Internationalization has become a big topic in recent years. A cap can now be put on the number of students enrolled in the English-language variant of degree programs.

“That is only possible if a program is allowed to be bilingual, and is only allowed after review. I’ve said it before: I don’t like the new law that regulates this, but I’m afraid it's coming. We are in good financial shape as an organization, but several of our large English-language programs, such as Communication Science, are keeping other (smaller) programs alive financially. If we are no longer allowed to offer the English-language variant, I fear a domino effect. But above all, internationalization is crucial for the quality of our education and research and for the academic formation of students. I do not see a very bright future in this respect.”

Almost all of your predecessors usually left earlier than planned with internal and managerial problems. How did you manage to complete those eight years?

“A lot of poldering and also a bit of luck.” Here, her spokesperson adds, “and a good sense of what’s going on, open communication, answering apps and emails yourself, being nice and reading everything, Geert reads everything that comes her way.” Ten Dam: “Yes, you really have to read everything, so you know every layer of the organization. And a little humor helps, too.”